Foundational Fridays: Mapping the Act - Venue vs. County of Residence

Welcome to this episode where we tackle one of the most misunderstood parts of being a notary. Join Eddie Montes Travis and Marylyn Lee Trotter as they clarify the major differences between where you live and where you are actually performing your duties. Getting the venue correct is a basic requirement that ensures every document you sign is legally binding and professional.

• Subject: Defining the Venue. This term refers to the physical location where the notary and the signer are standing at the exact moment the document is notarized.
• Subject: County of Residence. This is the location where your official commission is recorded, which might differ significantly from the venue of a mobile signing.
• Subject: Avoiding Errors. Incorrectly listing your residence instead of the actual venue is a common mistake that can lead to rejected documents and legal liability.
• Subject: Practical Examples. Whether you are at a country diner or a client's porch, you must always record the county where the signing occurs, not your home base.

Understanding these foundational elements will help you avoid the most common pitfalls in the industry. Keeping your certificates accurate protects both you and your clients from future headaches. Please make sure to subscribe and like the podcast to help us bring you more helpful tips every week.

Show Notes:
• The difference between venue and residence.
• How to correctly identify the county for the notarial certificate.
• Why physical location matters for legal compliance.
• Common mistakes made during mobile signings in rural areas.

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Notary Public Foundation: Essential Guide to Core Duties, Ethics, and Commissioning on Amazon

Your Monday Notary Reading:
Notary Operational Excellence: Mastering Certificates, Journals, Ink, and Copy Certification on Amazon

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Notary Fraud Shield: Real-World Tactics, Red Flags, and Refusal Strategies on Amazon

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The Mobile Notary Blueprint: Launching and Managing Your On-Demand Business on Amazon

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Notary Niche Navigator: Your Guide to Loan Signings, Apostilles, I-9s, and More on Amazon

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Notary Law & Liability: Understanding State Regulations, Insurance, and Avoiding UPL

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The Future Notary: Mastering RON, eNotary, and Complex Scenarios on Amazon

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Executive Producer Derrick Spruill
Writers Marylyn Lee Trotter and Eddie Montes Travis
Graphics & Illustrations by Eddie Montes Travis
Music by Thomas Bynum
This Show is Produced by Magnificent Workz
Business Solutions

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Are you an aspiring notary looking to join millions of other notaries? Start your journey with the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruell. This essential guide provides the step-by-step process to becoming commissioned in your state. Don't stumble into the role. Walk into it with confidence. Grab your copy of the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruell on Amazon today.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Welcome to Notary Knowledge, Eddie, and I'm Marilyn.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

It is uh absolutely fantastic to be here today. And you know, if you are just joining us for the very first time, you have stepped right into a safe space.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Yeah, you really have. Because, well, stepping into the world of notary work can honestly feel like you are suddenly expected to speak a foreign language.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Oh, totally. Like you have to decipher ancient legal scrolls or something, right?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Exactly. And somehow navigate these incredibly high-stakes paperwork situations without making a single mistake. It is just incredibly intimidating.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

It really is. I mean, you take the oath of office, you get your official stamp in the mail, and suddenly people are handing you these life-changing documents.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Right. So whether you are prepping for your very first signing appointment or you know, you just got your commission and are staring at that brand new stamp, wondering what on earth to do next, you are in exactly the right place.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Aaron Powell We are breaking things down to the absolute entry-level basics today. We want you to learn the ropes without feeling overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yeah. And in our previous sessions, we have tackled the foundational elements of identity verification. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Right. We spent a lot of time discussing how to check an ID, what counts as satisfactory evidence, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Exactly. Just making absolutely sure the person standing in front of you is exactly who they claim to be. But today we are taking a major step forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

We are uh mapping out the actual paperwork today, which is huge.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

It is a massive topic. But before we jump into that, I really want to enthusiastically encourage you to check out a few incredible resources that will basically serve as your ultimate safety net in this industry.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Oh, absolutely. You absolutely need to buy the notary knowledge books written by Derek Sproul.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yes, specifically titles like uh The Notary Public Foundation, your essential guide to core duties, ethics, and commissioning.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

And don't forget notary operational excellence and notary fraud shield. I mean, these aren't just textbooks that sit on a shelf gathering dust.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Not at all. They are literal field manuals for surviving and thriving out there in the real world.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

They really are indispensable. And while you were at it, prompt yourself to visit the notary knowledge website for additional resources, you know, downloadable guides, and state-specific updates.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Right, because the laws change constantly. And that website is basically your central hub for staying completely current.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

It is. Also, if you are a visual learner, you definitely want to promote your own learning by checking out our video show, New Notary, with Eddie Montez-Travis.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah, that show is great because it brings a lot of these complex concepts to life visually, which is just so helpful when we are talking about paperwork.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Definitely. And hey, if you are short on time but need a quick refresher before you literally walk into a signing appointment, go watch the short form content, Maryland's 90 seconds of notary.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Oh, I love those. It is punchy, it is highly accurate, and it will honestly save you from making critical errors on the fly.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So let's get into today's core theme for Foundational Fridays, which is mapping the act.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Yes. Specifically, we are tackling the monumental and honestly often confusing showdown between venue and county of residence.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

This is such a big one.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

It is. And you know, think of your county of residence as your home base, right? But the venue is your live GPS pin drop.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

I love that analogy. It is so visual.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Thanks. Because getting these two confused can literally blow up a real estate transaction, like completely destroy it.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

It really can. That single administrative detail, the venue, is the absolute linchpin of jurisdictional integrity in real estate law.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

So if the GPS pin drops in the wrong state or the wrong county on that piece of paper, what happens?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Well, the legal system basically assumes the document is entirely invalid. It just fails to enter the public record properly.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Wow. So today our entire mission is to make sure you never make that mistake. We are going to take a quick commercial break, but stick around because when we come back, we are breaking down the anatomy of a notarial certificate.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

And we are back. So before the break, we were talking about how crucial the venue is. But to understand the venue, you first have to deeply understand the ecosystem it lives in.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Right, the notarial certificate itself, because when someone hands you a document, you aren't just randomly stamping a blank page.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Exactly. You are interacting with a very specific piece of text. Every single notarial certificate, um, whether it is printed at the very bottom of a document or attached as a separate loose piece of paper, is made up of three core parts.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Okay, so let's think about it structurally. Walk us through the parts.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Sure. So the head is the venue, which tells us exactly where the act is happening. The body is the notarial wording itself.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

So that's the narrative that tells us what the notary did, like taking an acknowledgement or administering a girat.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

You got it. And then the feet, well, that is the notary's official signature and seal, proving who performed the act.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Aaron Powell Okay, so it's where, what, and who. But here's something that trips up a lot of novices, and honestly, it tripped me up when I first started looking at these forms.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

What's that?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

Why is the certificate considered entirely separate from the rest of the document? Like the document itself could be talking about selling a multimillion dollar commercial property, right? Or setting up a complex family trust fund.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

Right, a massive legal document.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah. But the certificate is just this little administrative box at the end. So why is there such a hard line between the two?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Well, that separation is incredibly important because it defines the entire scope of your job. As a notary, you are authenticating the signatures on the document and the willingness of the signer.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

You're not authenticating the document itself.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

No, absolutely not. You are not authenticating the legality, the fairness, or the factual accuracy of the document's contents. The certificate is your domain.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Okay, let me push back on that for a second. Let's say a client brings me a 50-page legal contract for a commercial real estate deal.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Okay, pretty common scenario.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

And it's full of complex financial terms, fluctuating interest rates, obscure zoning laws, all of that. If my seal is going on the back of this massive packet, are you telling me I don't need to read that whole thing before I notarize it?

SPEAKER_00 6:28

That is exactly what I'm telling you. In fact, you really shouldn't be evaluating the contents at all.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Wait, really? Not even a quick skim to make sure it's legal.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Nope. Because you are not an attorney. And if you start reading the document, interpreting it, explaining legal terms, or telling a client whether a contract seems fair or not, you are crossing a very dangerous line.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Aaron Powell Into the unauthorized practice of law, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Trevor Burrus Exactly. Which is a massive violation. You act as an impartial fraud deterrent. Your focus is strictly on the mechanics of the signing.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

So I just verify the identity of the signer using a valid government-issued ID and ensure they are signing willingly.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yes, willingly and without visible coercion. Yeah. And then you complete your certificate accurately. That is the absolute boundary of your authority.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

So my entire professional responsibility lives inside that little certificate block at the end of the document.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yep. The 50 pages before it are none of your business. But those 50 words in the certificate are your entire universe.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Aaron Powell That is so wild to think about. Your universe is the certificate.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Precisely. Let's look at the Arkansas Guidelines, for example, just because they provide a really clear illustrative baseline that applies to almost every state in the country.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Okay. What do they require for a complete certificate?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Well, to have a legally viable certificate in Arkansas, it must contain your official signature exactly as it is on file with the Secretary of State and a clear, readable impression of your official seal.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

And the venue, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Right. The correct venue, the exact date of the notarial act, and a narrative of the act. Like the body wording that says something like, uh, subscribed and sworn to before me.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Or acknowledged that they executed the same.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Exactly. And here is the kicker. If you leave blanks in that certificate, it is a fatal error.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Aaron Ross Powell Wait, fatal in what sense? Like, does the document just get sent back to you for a quick fix?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Aaron Powell Fatal in the sense that the document will be outright rejected by whoever's receiving it. A county clerk, a bank auditor, a judge, and a court of law. They will toss it.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Just for a blank space.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Aaron Ross Powell Yes. Because leaving a blank space in a certificate is the equivalent of handing a stranger a signed blank check.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Aaron Powell Oh, wow. I never thought about it like that.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Aaron Powell Yeah. If you leave the date blank or the name of the signer blank, someone else could easily write in fraudulent information after you leave the room.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Aaron Powell Right. They could write in a different name or backdate the document to make it look like it was signed before a certain legal deadline.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Aaron Powell Exactly. Therefore, a certificate with blank spaces is considered legally void because it has entirely lost its integrity.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

That brings up a really crucial point about the order of operations. When you are sitting at the table with the signer, the timeline of what you do and when you do it matters immensely.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

It is arguably the most important procedural habit a novice can build. It prevents so much heartache down the line.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

So what is the golden rule of the ceremony?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

The rule is this the notarial certificate must be completely filled out by you, the notary, before it is signed and sealed.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

So I have to fill out all the words, the dates, the venues on the certificate, and then I sign my name and apply my ink stamp as the absolute final step.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Yes, the stamp and the signature are the very last things that happen. You never, ever stamp a document and sign your name and then go back to fill in the date or the venue later.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

And I'm assuming you certainly never hand over a stamped sign certificate with blanks for the client to just fill in later.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Absolutely not. Completing the certificate first prevents anyone from inserting false material into the document after it leaves your possession.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

That makes perfect sense. Once you place your signature and seal on that paper, you are locking it down.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

You are declaring to the legal world this act is complete, the facts stated in this certificate are true, and nothing more can be added or altered.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

The seal is the final lock on the vault. I love that. So let's take a quick break here, and when we come back, we are zooming in on the head of the certificate, the venue.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Welcome back to Notary Knowledge. So we've covered the anatomy of the certificate, right? The head, the body, the feet.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Right. And we know that we are responsible for every single pen stroke inside that box. So let's talk about the venue, which is arguably the most misunderstood part of this entire process.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

It really is. The venue is where so many well-meaning professionals make their very first catastrophic error. So let's clearly define what it is.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Okay, break it down for us.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

The venue is the real time physical location where the notarial act occurs. Whenever you see a notarial certificate, the very first thing at the top will usually be formatted as, you know, state of blank, county of blank.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Right. I see that all the time.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

That is the venue. It is declaring to any judge, clerk, or auditor exactly where on planet Earth you and the signer were standing when the ID was verified and the paper was signed.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

And sometimes you'll see these little letters next to the venue block. Like you'll see state of whatever, county of whatever, and then the letters SS or sometimes SDT.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yes, the infamous little letters.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I remember when I first started looking at these forms, I literally thought SS meant social security, or maybe like sworn statement. Honestly, it just looks like a typo from a typewriter.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

It's a very common point of confusion. And it usually throws beginners off because no one ever takes the time to explain it to them.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

So what does it actually mean?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Those letters are actually a Latin abbreviation. SS or Z-A-T stands for silicate.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Silicit.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Yeah, which translates roughly to to wit, or in particular. It is a centuries-old legal tradition that simply designates that the information following it is the physical jurisdiction.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Ah, interesting. So it's a historical holdover from English common law.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Exactly. You don't have to write anything extra next to the SS. It's just a formal label for the venue block. It basically means pay attention, the following geographic location is exactly where this legal act took place.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Going back to our earlier thought process, the venue is exactly like the timestamp and location metadata on a digital photograph. It proves exactly where you were sitting when the ink dried on the paper.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

That is exactly right. And you know, the venue is dynamic. It changes based on reality.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Right, because if you are a mobile professional, your venue changes depending on where you drive your car that day.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Precisely. If you do a signing at a coffee shop in Dallas County in the morning, your venue is Dallas County. But if you drive over to Tarrant County for an afternoon appointment at a hospital, your venue changes to Tarrant County for that specific document.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Because the venue moves with your physical body. Which brings us to the counterweight to the venue, the county of commission or the county of residence.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Right, those are two different things.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

So the venue is the live GPS pin drop. What exactly is the county of commission?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

The county of commission is your administrative home. When you apply to become a notary, you have to file your paperwork with a specific local government entity.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Like the county clerk.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Depending on your state, yes. You file your surety bond, your oath of office, and a specimen of your official signature with a specific county clerk or the secretary of state. This is usually based on where you live or where your primary business is located.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

And that specific county becomes your county of commission. It is where your professional identity is anchored.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Exactly. And unlike the venue, which moves with you as you drive around town, your county of commission is static.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Completely static, right. Like it never changes unless you officially move.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Right. In most states, you are granted statewide jurisdiction. This means if you are commissioned in Texas, you can notarize a document anywhere within the borders of the great state of Texas.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Okay, so I could travel from Houston all the way to El Paso to do a signing.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

You could, but even in El Paso, your county of commission never changes. It is permanently engraved or printed right there on your official rubber seal.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay, let's put this into a real world scenario because this is where the theory turns into a practical nightmare for novice notaries. It has to do with pre-printed document confusion.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Oh, this is the exact point of failure for so many people.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

I want to explore how a notary gets tripped up by the people who drafted the document in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Well, real estate transactions are often handled by large centralized entities, you know, national title companies, out-of-state lenders, massive relocation firms.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Right, companies processing thousands of files a day.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Exactly. They use automated software to generate their deed packages. And their software is usually programmed to pre-populate the notarial certificates with the state and county where the property is physically located.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Because that is where the document will eventually be mailed to be recorded in the public land records, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yes. So the software just grabs the property location and stamps it into the venue block.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

I see where this is going. Let's say a family is sitting in their living room in Orange County, California.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Okay, California.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

And they are selling a piece of land they inherited, and that land is located in Webb County, Texas. Right. The title company in Texas drafts the deed, prints it out, and ships it via overnight courier to the family in California. Then the family hires me, a California notary, to come to their house in Orange County to notarize their signatures on the deed so they can sell the land.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And when you, the California notary, sitting in an Orange County living room, look at the notarial certificate at the bottom of that deed, what does the pre-printed venue say?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Because the software generated it based on the dirt being sold, it says state of Texas, County of Webb.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Exactly. And if you don't catch that, you're about to commit a massive jurisdictional error.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

But because I am physically sitting in California, I have absolutely no legal authority to perform a notarial act in the state of Texas.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Right. If you leave that venue as Texas, but you stamp it with your California seal, you have just created a fatally defective document.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

Aaron Powell The venue is legally claiming the act happened in Texas, but the seal proves the notary only has authority in California. It is a massively glaring contradiction on the face of the document.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

It really is.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Wait, hold on. If I leave Texases on there while sitting in California, what actually happens? Does the county clerk back in Texas just reject it and mail it back?

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Or is it worse? It is much worse.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Does it go into the filing cabinet but essentially act like a phantom document? Because if it doesn't provide constructive notice, it legally doesn't exist, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

That is exactly the danger. And you have hit on the most terrifying part of this job. You've just created a phantom document. But before we get into the fallout of that phantom document, let's take a quick break. Stick around. We'll be right back to talk about how to fix this at the table.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

And we are back. So we were just talking about this phantom document situation, but let's start with how to fix the error at the table so it never happens in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Right. What is the fix?

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Yeah, if I see state of Texas, County of Webb at the very top of the deed itself, like the big bold letters at the top of page one that introduce the whole transaction. Should I cross that out and write California since I'm sitting in California?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Absolutely not. No. This is a critical distinction that you must memorize. You must distinguish between the property venue and the notary venue.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Okay, so the property venue is usually at the very top of the first page of the deed, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Yes. It identifies the jurisdiction of the land itself. It tells the legal system which county holds the dirt. You never ever touch the property venue.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Because altering the property venue can destroy the deed's recordability.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yes, it completely messes up the title transfer because you are essentially trying to move a piece of Texas land to California with a pen stroke.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Okay, so I leave page one completely alone. The dirt stays where the dirt is.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Correct. You scroll all the way down to the signature page, to the notarial certificate itself, the part where you are signing. If the notary venue in the certificate block says Texas, that is what you correct.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

I see. So I draw a single line through Texas, write California, initial it, and then do the same for the county. I cross out web, write orange, and initial it.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Exactly. You are only correcting the GPS pin drop of the physical signing at the desk, not the location of the dirt being sold.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

That is such a vital distinction to wrap my head around. The property venue equals the dirt. The notary venue equals the desk where the paper is being signed. Do not touch the dirt.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Exactly right. Never touch the dirt, just fix the desk.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Let's transition into what happens when a notary forgets to fix the desk. We started this whole discussion with a horrifying scenario about a bank losing a half million dollars because of a venue error.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yes, a very real scenario.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Let's break down the actual mechanism of how a simple venue defect can cause a financial catastrophe. How does a typo lead to avoided mortgage?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Well, to understand the fallout, we have to dip our toes into real property jurisprudence, specifically the fundamental difference between a latent defect and a patent defect.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Okay, break that down for me. What is the difference between latent and patent?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

A latent defect is hidden. It is a flaw in the notarization process that you cannot see just by looking at the piece of paper.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Like what?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

For example, let's say a notary notarizes a signature for a friend over the phone without the friend being physically present. The certificate looks absolutely perfect on paper. The venue is right, the seal is clear, the signature is there.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

But the act itself was illegal because physical presence was bypassed.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

Exactly. That is a latent defect. You would need extrinsic evidence like phone records or testimony to prove the document is flawed.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

It's like having termites inside the walls of a house. The house looks totally fine from the street, but the underlying structure is deeply compromised.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

That's a great way to put it. A patent defect, on the other hand, is an obvious facial error. It is a mistake that is glaringly visible on the face of the document to anyone who reads it without needing any outside context.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

And a mismatched venue is the textbook definition of a patent defect, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Exactly. If the venue says state of New York, but the notary seal clearly says notary public, state of New Jersey, the contradiction is right there in black and white. Anyone who looks at the paper can see it is legally impossible.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

So why does a patent defect matter so much to a real estate transaction? I mean, if the people actually signed it and agreed to the deal, why does a technicality on the notary block ruin the whole thing?

SPEAKER_00 20:45

It comes down to a foundational legal concept called constructive notice. When you buy a house or when a bank issues a mortgage, that deed or mortgage is taken down to the county courthouse and recorded in the public land records.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Right. Everyone knows you have to record the deed.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

And by putting it in the public index, the law says you have provided constructive notice to the entire world that you own that property or that the bank has a lien on it. It protects your ownership rights from anyone else who might try to claim the property or borrow money against it later.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

It's like putting up a massive legally binding billboard in the center of town that says, Eddie owns this house, keep off. Everyone is assumed to have seen the billboard.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Exactly. But here is the catch, and this is where the entire system hinges on the notary. A deed can only provide constructive notice if it is in strictly valid recordable form.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And under the law, a deed with a patent defect, like a mismatched notary venue, is not in valid form.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Precisely. Even if the county clerk accidentally accepts it, stamps it, and puts it in the filing cabinet, the law treats it as if it was never recorded at all. Because it was defective on its face, it fails to provide constructive notice to the public.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

This goes back to what you called a phantom document. Paper is physically in the government's filing cabinet, but legally it's invisible.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yes. There is extensive case law on this that keeps real estate attorneys awake at night. Take the classic case of Messer Smith V. Smith out of North Dakota.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

What happened there?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

In that case, a deed was acknowledged over the phone, which was a defect. The court ruled the recorded deed offered no legal protection whatsoever, and the subsequent buyer, who recorded a clean deed, actually took the property from the original owner.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Or look at Alan V. Allen in Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

A family attorney notarized a deed for a mother, stating in the venue that she was physically present in Massachusetts. But evidence proved she was physically in a hospital in New Hampshire that day.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Because the venue was false.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Right. Because the venue was false, the acknowledgement was defective, constructive notice failed entirely, and the sibling dispute over who inherited the property was turned upside down.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

That is terrifying. A simple administrative typo from a notary can literally cost someone their house. It completely destroys the chain of title.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

But how does this tie into bankruptcy? You mentioned earlier that a bank could lose their secured loan. The downstream financial liabilities are staggering, especially for lenders. Let's talk about section 544A3 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code. This is known in the legal world as the Strongarm Clause.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

The Strongarm Clause? That honestly sounds like a mafia shakedown.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

It basically is if you are a bank holding a defective mortgage. When a person files for bankruptcy, a bankruptcy trustee is appointed by the court to manage their assets and pay off as many creditors as possible.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Okay, makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

The Strongarm Clause gives the trustee the legal power of a hypothetical bona fide purchaser. This means the trustee has the power to look at the public record and challenge any leads on the property.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Uh oh. So if the bankrupt person has a mortgage on their house, but that mortgage document has a patent defect.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Like a wrong notary venue that says Texas instead of California.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

The trustee can point to that defect and say, this mortgage fails to provide constructive notice, therefore I am treating this property as if it has no mortgage on it.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Exactly. Walk me through the exact mechanics of what happens next. The trustee points out the error. What happens to the bank's mortgage?

SPEAKER_01 24:13

The trustee uses their strong armed powers to completely void the bank's lin on the property. The bank's secured mortgage, which was safely backed by the physical house, is suddenly stripped away and turned into an unsecured claim.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Wow. And an unsecured claim is just like a massive credit card debt, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Exactly. The bank completely loses their right to foreclose on the house. Instead of taking the house to recoup their half million dollars, they are thrown into the general pool of unsecured creditors where they might get pennies on the dollar.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

The bank faces a massive financial loss, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, all because the notary didn't cross out Texas and write California.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

And when a bank loses a half million dollars because of a venue typo, they aren't just going to shrug and walk away. Who do they come looking for?

SPEAKER_00 25:01

They look directly at the title company that insured the transaction, and the title company's lawyers look straight at the notary who stamped the paper.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Notaries can be held personally liable for damages caused by their negligence.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Absolutely. In Arizona, for instance, the state law imposes a $5,000 statutory penalty, or triple actual damages, on anyone who causes an invalid document to be recorded. If you are the notary who caused the patent defect that led to avoided mortgage, you are absolutely in the crosshairs of that liability.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

This is exactly why Derek Sproul's notary fraud shield and operational excellence books are required reading. You have to protect yourself by understanding the gravity of what you are doing.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

You really do.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

So let's say a notary realizes they messed up the venue, they get home, look at a copy of the document, and realize they left the wrong state on the certificate. How do they cure the defect before it blows up a real estate deal?

SPEAKER_00 25:56

The absolute best, most legally bulletproof cure is a complete renotarization. You have to physically meet with the signer again, print a fresh certificate, have them acknowledge their signature again in your physical presence, and fill out the venue correctly from scratch.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

But what if meeting them again isn't possible? What if they flew back to Europe the next day? Can I just cross it out on the paper after the fact, or send the title company an email saying, hey, fix that for me?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

That depends entirely on your state laws, and this is where you must intimately know your specific jurisdiction. In states like Texas or Arkansas, if you catch a paper air quickly, the notary is sometimes allowed to draw a line through the mistake, write the correct venue, and initial it.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Okay, but what about other states?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Well, if you are commissioned in California or Florida, you are strictly prohibited from correcting a certificate once the notarization is complete and the signer has left your presence.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Really? So if you make a mistake in Florida or California, you cannot just fix it with a pen later.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

No. You cannot mail an amended certificate. You must start over and renotarize, period.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

That is a harsh but necessary reality check.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Attention to detail is simply not optional in this profession. We are going to take our final commercial break, and when we come back, we're going to dive into some real-world field scenarios. Stay with us.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Welcome back. So before the break, we were talking about venue mistakes. Let's shift gears slightly. We get a lot of questions from folks who are out there in the trenches dealing with situations that are never as clean as the textbook examples.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yes, I love this segment. I want to walk through some real-world scenarios from novice notaries facing tricky, weird, or confusing situations. Good question. What would you do?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Awesome. I love looking at these field scenarios because they highlight how diverse the laws are across different states. What is our first scenario?

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Scenario one comes from Dominic in Nevada. Dominic is asking about the physical ink on his stamp. He wants to know what kind of seal he can use in Nevada. He says, Can I use one of those fancy metal embossers that crimps the paper? Or what about a colored ink pad like purple or red to make my seal stand out?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Good question, Dominic. If we look directly at Nevada law, specifically NRS 240.040, the rules are very clear and very specific about the mechanics of the seal. Nevada requires a mechanical or rubber stamp that produces a legible imprint. But the key phrase in the statute is that the imprint must be in indelible, photographically reproducible ink.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Photographically reproducible, why is that specific phrasing so important?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Think about how real estate and legal records are stored. In the old days, documents were filed in physical cabinets. Then we move to microfiche. Now every single document recorded at a county clerk's office goes through a high-steed digital scanner.

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Right, everything is digitized.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

If a document goes through a scanner or a black and white photocopier, the seal has to show up clearly on the digital image. Red ink or light purple ink often vanishes entirely when hit with the bright light of a scanner.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Oh wow. And if your seal vanishes on the scan, it looks like an unnotarized document in the public record. So standard black ink is always the safest route.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Exactly. And what about the metal embosser that Dominic asked about? The one that crimps the paper to make a raised seal.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah, can you use that?

SPEAKER_00 29:10

An embossed crimp on a piece of paper is completely invisible to a camera lens or a flatbed scanner. If you use an embosser today as your primary seal, you are essentially stamping a document with invisible ink for the public record.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

That defeats the whole purpose.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Right. Nevada hasn't required an embossed crimped seal since 1965. You can use an embosser in addition to your ink stamp if you really want that vintage aesthetic, but it absolutely cannot replace the photographically reproducible ink stamp.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Makes total sense.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

But to show you how diverse state laws are, though, contrast Nevada with Tennessee. In Tennessee, the law says you can use any color ink you want except black or yellow, provided it photocopies black. It's fascinating how every state has its own quirky flavor based on how their county clerks prefer to process paper.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

That is so weird. Okay, scenario two is from Clara in Oregon. Clara writes, I'm dealing with out-of-state documents, specifically real estate deeds from California. I know California requires thumbprints in the journal. What makes a valid thumbprint? Do I have to be a fingerprint expert to know if it's acceptable?

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Clara is running into a classic cross-border compliance issue. While her home state of Oregon has specific rules for notarizing certain documents, like subdivision plats, she is right that California law, specifically government code 8206, mandates that for deeds affecting real property, the notary must obtain the signer's right thumbprint in their journal.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

I've heard about that. The history of this requirement dates back to massive real estate fraud waves in California in the 80s and 90s, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Yes, exactly, where people were literally stealing houses with fake IDs. The thumbprint acts as the ultimate biometric deterrent. But to answer Clara's question, do you need a forensic science degree? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

I imagine the National Notary Association gets this question all the time from anxious notaries staring at smudged ink.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Oh, they do. And the NNA guidance is incredibly practical. The law doesn't define the forensic validity of the print, meaning you don't need to be able to identify loops, orols, and arches.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

So what's the standard procedure?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

It is simple mechanics. You instruct the signer to press their thumb straight down onto the ink pad and then guide their hand to press straight down into your journal. Don't let them roll it, don't let them twist it. Rolling causes the ridges to smear.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

And what if it just looks like a mess?

SPEAKER_00 31:30

If the impression comes out looking like a massive, unrecognizable black blob, or if it looks like the signer maliciously dragged their thumb to ruin the print, just do it again in the margin. You are just looking for a clear, flat impression of the ridges. No magnifying glass required.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Simple and practical. I like it. Scenario three comes from Felix in Utah. Felix is asking about his planner or his notary journal. He asks, do I really need to buy and use a formal bound notary journal, or can I just keep track of my signings on sticky notes, a spiral notebook, or a digital spreadsheet on my phone?

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Felix, throw away the sticky notes immediately. Just right now.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Seriously.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Utah just passed recent legislation, SB 139, which goes into full effect for new commissions starting in May 2026. This law formally requires the use of a proper sequential notary journal.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

And what exactly has to go inside this formal journal to make it compliant?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

The law dictates specific elements that capture the entire narrative of the signing, the date and time of the notarial act, the type of document being notarized, the type of ID used to verify the signer, the fee charged, and the actual physical signatures of the people appearing before you.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

And it has to be bound, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yes. The journal must be bound so that pages cannot be removed or inserted without it being obvious.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

And beyond just following the law, the journal is your ultimate liability shield. Let's play out a hypothetical. If you're dragged into court three years from now because someone claims their signature was forged on a deed, you aren't going to remember that specific Tuesday afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

But if a plaintiff's attorney cross-examines you and you pull out a permanently bound journal with the signer's signature, their ID details, and their thumbprint logged in ink, that book will testify for you. It proves you followed the procedure perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Right. But if you walk into court with a handful of sticky notes or a spreadsheet that anyone could have edited yesterday, you will be destroyed on the stand. Your journal is your best friend.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Exactly. Never cut corners on your journal. It is the only pangible proof of your diligence. All right. Scenario four is from Eva in Colorado. Eva has a complex geographical puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Okay, let's see her.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

She writes, I am dealing with an out-of-state vehicle title. A truck was originally bought in Colorado. It is currently titled in Arizona, but the seller who needs to sign the title is now physically living in Nevada. Can I, a Colorado notary, just have him mail the title to me? I notarize his signature and mail it back?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

This is a fantastic question that brings us all the way back to our core concept of physical presence and the venue. I frame this around the concept of shoes on the ground.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

Shoes on the ground, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Traditional pen and paper notarization requires the notary and the signer to physically have their shoes on the floor in the exact same room at the exact same time.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

So proximity is the entire point. You can't verify someone's willingness, their sobriety, or their true identity through the Postal Service. You can't administer an oath to an envelope.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Precisely. Under Colorado law, you absolutely cannot notarize across state lines via mail. The seller in Nevada has two choices for a traditional notarization. He can find a local Nevada notary to notarize his signature on the Arizona title while he is standing in Nevada, or he has to buy a plane ticket, fly back to Colorado, and put his shoes on the floor in Eva's office. The jurisdiction boundaries are absolute.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Our final field scenario, scenario five, is from Gavin in New Hampshire. Gavin is confused about the order of the signing ceremony. He has an out-of-state document that, strangely, asks for the notary to sign first before the client signs. He wants to know if he can accommodate that request.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Gavin needs to pump the brakes immediately. We touched on this earlier when we talked about leaving blanks, but it's worth repeating with statutory backing, because this scenario actually happens quite often with poorly drafted legal forms.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Really? Out-of-state forms just invent their own rules.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Oh, all the time. But New Hampshire rules state clearly that a notarial act must be evidenced by a certificate signed and dated by the notary. And the golden rule of the ceremony order never changes, regardless of what some bizarre out-of-state document requests.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

The order of operations is secret. It's like sealing an envelope before you put the letter inside. It defeats the entire purpose of the security measure.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Exactly. Let's break down the mechanics of an oath or an acknowledgement again. The notary must first identify the signer. Then the notary must supervise the signer as they physically sign the document.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

So the client signs first.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Always. If it is a jurate, the notary must administer an oath and the signer must swear to the contents while signing. If it is an acknowledgement, the signer must declare to the notary that they signed it willingly. Only after the client has signed and made their declaration does the notary fill out the certificate completely.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

And only then, as the absolute final step, does the notary apply their signature and seal?

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yes. Stamping a blank document or signing out of order is a massive red flag and can lead to immediate commission revocation because you are attesting to an act that hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Those were incredible questions, and they highlight just how many moving parts there are to this job, but everything we have talked about so far has been based on physical paper and physical presence, shoes on the floor.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Right, traditional paper signings.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

But the industry is rapidly digitizing. I want to transition into the future of the venue, specifically remote online notarization or on.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

This is where the landscape gets truly fascinating. The industry is adopting digital platforms at breakneck speed. So the obvious question becomes how does venue work when the notary is sitting in a home office in Missouri and the signer is sitting on their couch in Germany connecting via webcams?

SPEAKER_01 37:15

That completely breaks the whole GPS pin drop analogy, doesn't it? If the people are in two different places, sometimes thousands of miles apart, where does the pin drop?

SPEAKER_00 37:23

The legal framework had to adapt rapidly to answer that exact question. Let's use Missouri's comprehensive House Bill 1655 as our ultimate guide here, because it lays out the modern digital standards beautifully.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Okay, what does Missouri say about the venue for Ron?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

For Ron, the law dictates that the venue is always the physical location of the notary. It does not matter if the signer is in another state, on a cruise ship, or in a foreign country.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

So if you are a Missouri remote notary and your shoes are on the floor in Missouri, your venue is Missouri.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Correct. The jurisdiction remains physically anchored to the professional, even if the medium is digital.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

But because the physical presence is gone, I mean, because you can't look at their body language up close or touch their physical ID card, the technological security has to be massively amplified to compensate, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Exponentially amplified. Missouri's strict tech requirements for Ron are fascinating, and they show how serious states are about preventing digital fraud. You can't just use FaceTime or a standard Zoom link.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Right. It has to be a specific platform.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Exactly. The platform must feature secure, recorded, live audio-video communication. And the identity verification goes way beyond holding a plastic ID card up to a webcam. It requires multi-layered security.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Walk me through those layers. How does a digital notary actually prove who is on the other side of the screen?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

First, there is usually a knowledge-based authentication process, or KBA, where the signer has to answer complex questions about their credit history that only they would know.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Oh, like those questions about previous addresses or car loans.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Yes. Then there is credential analysis, where the signer uploads their ID and specialized software digitally verifies the microprinting and security features of the ID card against a national database. Some platforms even use biometric identifiers, scanning the topography of a face on the webcam to match it to the photo on the ID.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Wow. And what about the notary journal? I can't imagine a fully digital remote notary is sitting there writing in a physical paper book while typing on a keyboard.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

They maintain a highly secure electronic journal. And Missouri law demands that this e-journal must be securely backed up and it must be retained for at least 10 years. Furthermore, the system must be cryptographically designed so that it does not allow sequence alterations.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

So you cannot go back and insert a missing entry from last week or delete a mistake you made yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

No, it is an immutable digital chain of custody.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

So ironically, the digital world, which we often think of as fast, loose, and easy to manipulate, actually requires more rigorous record keeping than the traditional paper world.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Exactly. Because you lack the physical physiological context of being in the exact same room with someone, the electronic signature and the digital seal must be completely tamper evident.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

The physical venue where you are sitting might be static, but the digital trail proving that the encounter happens securely is incredibly rigorous.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

That's the trade-off. The burden of proof shifts from the physical paper and the ink bound in a book to the cryptographic security of the digital file and the recorded video of the transaction.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

That is a wild thought, and it brings us right to the end of our session today. I want to leave you with a final provocative thought to mull over as you build your career. I love this part. As we plunge deeper into this era of digital closings, remote online notarization, and even artificial intelligence, the traditional boundaries of our work are profoundly changing.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

They are shifting beneath our feet every single day.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Think about AI quality control software. There are programs right now being used by massive title companies that scan huge closing packages in milliseconds, specifically looking for venue mismatches before the document is ever sent to a county recorder.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

The software catches the Texas versus California error instantly.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Instantly. As this technology becomes the absolute standard, the traditional concept of a physical, geographically bound venue is being heavily tested.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

It raises an incredibly important question about the future of jurisdiction itself.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Exactly. Will the physical boundaries of a notary's commission eventually dissolve entirely, creating a truly national, borderless notary credential where you can notarize anything anywhere? Or will state lines become even more rigidly enforced by technology, using geolocation and IP tracking to ensure your digital seal locks down exactly where you are sitting down to the meter?

SPEAKER_00 41:49

It's a fascinating evolution, and it is something every novice notary needs to keep their eyes on as they navigate this profession.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

It is a highly dynamic industry, and staying rigorously informed is the only way to protect yourself and thrive.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

If today's exploration sparked a question, or if you run into a bizarre venue scenario out in the field that leaves you scratching your head, we want to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Yes, absolutely. Email your questions to Derek at dereksbruel.com. We will try to answer as soon as possible at the end of our shows.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

I want to take a moment to acknowledge the incredible team that puts this all together. Our exec producer is Derek Sprill. Our lead writer is Marilyn Leetrotter. The amazing graphics are by Eddie Montez Travis, and the phenomenal music is by Thomas Bynum. The show was proudly produced by Magnificent Works Business Solutions.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

You've got the tools, you've got the knowledge. Now it's time to put it into practice out there in the real world. Remember, don't just be listeners of the knowledge, be doers of the knowledge. This is notary knowledge. Until next time.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

Are you an aspiring notary looking to join millions of other notaries? Start your journey with the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Spruill. This essential guide provides the step-by-step process to becoming commissioned in your state. Don't stumble into the role. Walk into it with confidence. Grab your copy of the Notary Public Foundation by Derek Sprule on Amazon today.